B&F Fisherman Singles and project, a review.

[bmd]

Well, I was keeping any views I had (all at that time positive by the way) to myself as many said what they thought, both positive and negative.

I purchased the singles available this week, via Dub Vendor and waited, they dropped today.

I feel a bit cheated if I'm honest, I was excited by the project almost solely because Rhythm and Sound, , responsible for an absolutely sublime minimal mix of Cornell Campbell that I have were touted as being involved.
I supposed that they would be involved on some creative level with the project... not so. In fact anyone could have done the thing, as the mixes are straight and untreated in any way. A dissapointment frankly, with no hint of anything but water treading.

Of course the vocals are left to shine when they can, the Michael Rose cut is pretty nice... however, I don't know about the Cd, but the sound quality and e.q. on the vocal mix on the 7" selection is pretty thin and grainy, no depth at all, the Jazzbo cut and Horace Andy cut are both pretty, I don't know, thin and un-engaging perhaps...

I wish B&F had the guts to create something new from scratch, instead of halfway steps. It feels like they want to create the catalogue they don't have, as if the 'Roots Tank' has run out of gas and they need to drag everyone along, as they move on, and into something new. Taking old rhythms, letting them sit still, and getting vintage artists to sing over them just seems a bit lame.
If I was them, I'd record brand new rhythms in Jamaica, making particular use of real instruments and skilled players of yesteryear, get vintage artists to voice them and push for Roots.. It kind of feels like they know what they want to do, but are taking half steps at the moment.

[BMC]

I can't comment on the singles, 'cause I haven't received 'm yet, but I kinda disagree with your views on the concept, Mikey. I like the idea a lot actually, but do think B&F make one mistake and that is their choice of voicing many veteran artists for this one (of whom most to me are far past their prime when it comes to recording and imo simply can't deliver new tunes as good as the new artists around). For me, the most interesting would be to hear guys like Capleton or Buju (who apparantely both were interested in voicing, but it didn't happen in the end) or Richie Spice, Jah Cure, Turbulence, Fantan Mojah, maybe even Beenie Man etc etc and not Max Romeo, Prince Jazzbo, Big Youth, Horace Andy, Dillinger (Michael Rose excepted!) etc cause that to me looks like wanting to recreate the old days, which is never gonna happen. Also is less interesting to me, an old riddim with old artists is far less special than an old riddim with many new artists. I know they did also voice a few modern artists like Lutan Fyah and Luciano and probably a few more , but from the list mentionned by dom a while ago, the majority were 'veterans' and that's a shame. All imho ofcourse.

The involvement of Rhythm & Sound to me was a scary thougth at first, cause I didn't want them to change such a wicked riddim too much, which for me is more than fine as it is. So I'm in fact glad they didn't do much to it (I think...).
More on the actual music when they arrive, which should be somewhere next week I pressume, but even though I feel it could have been more interesting, I think I will dig these anyhow.

[bmd]

They didn't do ANYTHING to the rhythm, nothing t all from what i can tell.

I can see where you are coming from Marc, but then again you are known for your love of the new! I have to disagree somewhat with you, as I feel there are many older singers who can still cut the mustard , on old or new material... at least that generation could actually sing for starters

I think in a way you and I are both saying the same thing, from different angles,... that they need to commit properly to the idea of producing 'new' material.

I also agree that conceptually, for some reason, the idea of new singers over old rhythms, appeals much more than old singers on old rhythms, I would still like to hear my ideas for a 'new' production' with old musicians and singers creating new rhythms, with a modern Roots edge to them put into practice.
Personally I wouldn't be interested in your idea , I've had my fill of gruff voiced angry young men with no sweetness to their voice, or melody line to follow shouting incoherently at me thanks..

[BMC]

bmd said:

I feel there are many older singers who can still cut the mustard , on old or new material

With a few exceptions aside (Michael Rose, Freddie McGregor, Cocoa Tea, Ranking Joe maybe plus probably a few more), the 45s of the veterans on recent riddims for me are usually (not always) the ones to skip on. So, to be clear, this means they voice the same riddims as some modern artists, so it's really a one on one vocal comparison - not a riddim-issue. Albums same thing. Also those 45s on Heartical from the Slaving riddim for instance: excellent riddim, but most vocal efforts done by older artists stopped me from getting them: just weak. Live on stage they usually are still able to impress, but in my experience of the last years or so there's only very few new tunes from older artists I found worthwhile. Again, exceptions aside.

Do you have particular recordings or artists in mind with your above remark? Just curious.

I would still like to hear my ideas for a 'new' production' with old musicians and singers creating new rhythms, with a modern Roots edge to them put into practice.

Yeah, it's 100% clear we're not after the same thing ;D, cause a there's quite a big chance this is a release I wont even conscider buying.

I've had my fill of gruff voiced angry young men with no sweetness to their voice, or melody line to follow shouting incoherently at me thanks..

;D See, this is what Steve Barrow and me were talking about some time ago (right after the Satta set was released). We agreed on that voicing new artists on older riddims could help people like you, Mikey! It could possibly make people aware that there's more to modern artists then what the stereotypical prejudices tell. Well, at least that was the general message we agreed on. ;D
Sadly it didn't result in the line-up for the fisherman set I was hoping for.

[BMC]

Just found some samples on the net for those interested:

www.phonicarecords.co.uk/SearchResult.aspx?simple=fisherman

Sounds pretty good to me. From these short samples, the Luciano and Early Ones (whoever that may be), sound most interesting, followed by the Rose, Lutan and U-Roy. Let's see if I'll still feel the same after hearing the full tunes in full power.

[bmd]

I understand all that you are saying Marc I just don't agree.

I wouldn't call my feeling that I'm fed up with people shouting at me a 'steretypical prejudice',
I AM fed up with that 'sound', of course there are plenty of artists who don't deliver their vocals in that way, but a plethora of them do, and many of them without much true originality. I just don't like that style and perhaps when you use the word stereotypical, you use it because there is a large ammount of people who feel that way too, ie, they can't truck with the new. I find it aggressive, impenetrable on a cultural level, too culturally 'black' for me to feel like I have a part engaging with it,... and finally and most importantly for me, insensitive and untuneful.

Every now and then I dip my toe in the water and buy a few new tunes, and it is they that get left on the shelf to a larger degree than older tunes. Two notable exceptions for me this last year though were Marlon Ahser's Ganja Farmer, and Khaki Suit, Jr. Gong's tune.

I would much much ratheer listen to some old rocksteady than anything I've heard in the last 5 years, that is recently recorded/produced. Now you could say that I'm lost in the past, not engaging with the future, or present, BUT I do listen to it, I do engage with it, I listen to EVERY genre and era of jamaican music from Mento to stuff out this month...and it's not about anything for me but whether I like it or not.
I'm interested in music making, production, creativity, vocal talent, originality and everything that goes into making music. I've striven to create my own music since I was 15 and know what it is to try and make a good sound... and 90% of modern Jamaican music I could quite happily throw straight in the trash...

Don't forget these are just MY feelings. Many people have given me the opportunity to change them by offering me more tunes to listen to, cdrs, compilations etc etc, and each time I'm left pretty cold by most of what I hear.

One reason for your feelings about vintage artists soudning weak is that they just aren't going to work over some of the full on and aggressive riddims. AND they are older and not in their prime, however what I am talking about really is the style of delivery. I'm not even going to support many of the Roots era singers, my love for a good voice tends to stretch back to Alton, Kelly, Smith, Parker Boothe etc.

I get on with voices like Luciano, Beres etc, though Luciano does sound a hell of a lot like DEB much of the time!

[lankou2]

it's mostly the same musicians who record on most of the current dancehall roots riddims, anyway.i was even surprised to see who was behind the riddims like Seasons and such...guys from Firehouse Crew and 70's veterans.few young musicians are given the opportunity to record in the studios if they don't double their skills with sound engineering and programming skills.
for the nostalgic ones :
a lot of the major musicians from the roots era you'll be able to check on the next Horace Andy album: big big big lineup there!more info soon...
the same ones also recorded a few tunes with Gregory at the same sessions.don't ask for more on that one ! ; )

[BMC]

I also kinda get where you're coming from, Mike, that's not the point. If you don't enjoy most modern stuff, that's fine, to each his own. I guess the thing for me is probably your definition of 'shouting' and you saying that a plethora of them do so in their tunes. Bashment style maybe, but for roots style riddims you MUST have a soft definition for the term shouting that I simply don't understand. And especially when you do rate Khaki Suit this statement sounds kinda mysterious to me. Anyway, it doesn't matter, as said, I don't care whether you like modern reggae or not (though do kinda care about the argumentation as you can tell ), the thing that just surprises me in your writings is that I seem to recall you enjoying my top 30 session of 2005 tunes, incl. the discs I send you afterwards and this top 30 was quite a representive overview of modern JA roots music. You said things like:

Yeah, a right nice selection. I'm an old vintage boy, with a few new bits here and there, and most of what I've heard pleases my ears..

beautiful cut on Take A Ride, Youths A So Cold, not hear this one !!!! Big tune !!!

Wicked track, some nice heavy vibes hitting home now BMC !!

that Michael Rose is a killer, olde skool style to it somehow..

i don't listen to much modern stuff becuase it's often shouting at me, and I get a bit fried listening to it, but your selection surfed through in a very nice way.

And all these compared to a quote from above:

I find it aggressive, impenetrable on a cultural level, too culturally 'black' for me to feel like I have a part engaging with it,... and finally and most importantly for me, insensitive and untuneful.

So now I see back that same shouting etc opinion a few weeks later and a plethora boils down to the same agressive and shouting name tack again, while I thought after that session you'd possibly reviewed the opinion judging on your remarks (or were you mainly being polite?). Maybe I took them a bit too serious. This is just what surprises me and what I often see happening: people have a negative view on modern reggae, I play them some tunes and the response is really positive and enthousiastic and sometime later it's mostly the same crap again. That's where my prejudice remark comes from. There's a lot of crap modern reggae (I also am VERY selective in which tunes I buy) as there is a lot of crap 70s roots, though those crap tunes are often forgotten while the nowadays crap tunes are here in front of everyone. I guess there's a big difference there. Note that I'm not comparing styles here though, just sometimes feel that the old styles are judged by its killers while today's output is judged by its weak spots.

I know I keep on repeating this and it probably gets tired, but there have been too often misunderstandings on boards leading to unneeded heated debats, that I just want to have it clear: I do not care whether you or anyone enjoys modern reggae or not. It's different, new sound and surely can be disliked as much as I like it. All good. Yes I will try to convince you differently and have succeeded to do so a couple of times with people including with that top 30 from a few weeks ago, which I find really nice. It's just that when I hear an argumentation I don't understand or just don't hear as such I'll comment on it too. And to be clear, yes, I love modern reggae, also shouty bashment, but my collection of old reggae is still bigger then my modern one and I love it both enormously. I do play the modern stuff more, cause I love the energy in it and it just moves me more at the moment, but I will never say I find it better then older reggae.

Phew. Way too much again. Oh well. ;D

[bmd]

Not way too much at all, engaging in this discussion is interesting for me.. ... The way I've defined all modern Reggae as 'Shouting' just isn't true.. The Roots music coming around now certainly pleases my ears generally, though I'm though often left a bit cold by much of it,.. it's the hardcore bashement and gruff tones I find a problem, AND I did thoroughly enjoy your show, a much more overall mellow vibe is what I need.. and what you provided. I'm not closed off to it, and I am only speaking about how I feel right now in this moment, many moons ago, I couldn't stand Roots Radics era stuff.. and that certainly changed, my feelings about a lot of current Jamaican music probably will too.

I have realised that I often go for modern tunes with re-licks or old rhythms, Khaki Suit, Jamrock etc.. One reason I like the Marlon Ahser tune is that there is an old style makeup to it somehow, well that's how I feel about it anyway. There are other singers and tunes I like too, Jah Cure, some Capeton, some Anthony B, Fantan Mojah all occassionally float my boat.

It's all very relative and I have a sneaking suspicion that I would have been moaning on about Rocksteady not being any good, when Rocksteady was first around. I do admit that there is something about past music, and nostalgia that I enjoy.

I think possibly in a very basic way, I'm a lover of Folk music, history and culture, and not Popular or current music,... it's an odd thing to say granted, and difficult to explain fully, but perhaps you will get some of my meaning..

nice chatting to you..

mike...

[semindecent2]

"I do play the modern stuff more, cause I love the energy in it and it just moves me more at the moment, but I will never say I find it better then older reggae." - BMC

On the new sound thing Marc - you said it better than I could almost think it - the energy thing, that's what does it for me. There's an energy that's generated from the new sounds that can be hard to find with the older styles.

But ---- there is also a calm, meditative [and still not boring] feeling that can [almost] only be found with 'older' reggae.

This sounds a bit trite [I'm good at trite] but I'm glad I like both styles/generations - it doubles mi pleasures

[dc]

they should have got someone like the disiples or bush chemists to mix,someone in the no

[Freddy C]

dc said:

they should have got someone like the disiples or bush chemists to mix,someone in the no

Hey, heh! ;D

[BMC]

bmd said:

I think possibly in a very basic way, I'm a lover of Folk music, history and culture, and not Popular or current music,... it's an odd thing to say granted, and difficult to explain fully, but perhaps you will get some of my meaning..

I certainly do, Mike. Interesting and quite clear to see modern JA reggae doesn't really fit in that 'picture'. Cheers for the sharing of thoughts.

Semi-D wrote:

This sounds a bit trite [I'm good at trite] but I'm glad I like both styles/generations - it doubles mi pleasures

Same here, John. Though it sometimes would be nice for my bank account if I would dislike either the old or the new.

[Mrs Trellis]

Interesting conversation, I agree with you Mike that the input of Rhythm and Sound seems very minimal and almost non-exisitant on some of the tunes which is certainly strange as I expect they cost a bit to hire. But I do like most of the tunes, especially Early One, who I've not come across before, is a great update that sounds good played back to back with the original.

[bmd]

The thing about that Early One tune is that it is near verbatim just a repeat of a traditional market call/song, nothing very inventive there whatsoever... The Michael Rose is good though, I have returned to that one today for a few more listens.. Anyone got the tracklist for the Cd?

p.s. BMC. That's a cute little animated avatar you have there,...

[thirdstrikesound]

After a few spins of the half dozen Fisherman 7's, the Max Romeo & the Luciano are the standout tracks to me

I was underwhelmed overall though, and I'll qualify my opinion as that of a 70's roots & harmony (not so much DJ's) lover who does feel like a decent chunk of current JA output could fairly be described as off key hollering.

Big up DJ Greedy G for giving us a choice.

I hearby end my first post

[Freddy C]

His_Imperial_Measurements:
Aren't these Congos singles a bit like watching a Man Ure v Celtic friendly, all well and good, but ultimately pointless?

Bob Harding:
Perhaps you'd like Congo Ashanti Roy's email address so you can tell him yourself how pointless these singles are? After all the concept originated with the Congos themselves.

Oh, and all those versions of Real Rock, Stalag etc. that have been made over the years - all equally pointless I'm sure.

I wonder if you've actually heard the Fisherman singles?

(He had)

[jackjohnson]

HMMMMMMM......

"Perhaps you'd like Congo Ashanti Roy's email address so you can tell him yourself how pointless these singles are? After all the concept originated with the Congos themselves."

Do you suggest everyone with an opinion on a tune should email it to the artist? life is too short - theres and ours!! and do you mean the orig concept for these dull do-overs was congo ashanti roy? or just the killer original? even if the former, every man has to eat!! good luck to him, we don't have to like them and you already paid him!

"Oh, and all those versions of Real Rock, Stalag etc. that have been made over the years - all equally pointless I'm sure."

People tend to change the tune for a version, not just ovedub the master tape! not quite so pointless then.
its pretty boring when they have 12 cuts of a new killer rhythm but a 30 year old tune that can't be bested today?? I stand by my original analysis - and i've heard em.

[andyg]

I must admit I too was excited about the prospect of R&S being involved. I believe they are taking things in a wicked direction with their own productions. I thought they would add some of that to these singles. After buying just the Mykal Rose 7" I can say the CD is out of the question for me. If those 7s hadn't come out I would have probably sprung for the CD...Alas it would probably have sat lonely next to "Tree of Satta"...As for modern stuff it is the Jah Warriors, Disciples, etc. who are voicing old reggae singers in a new, refreshing way while forwarding a deep rootical vibe IMHO.

peace.

[professor]

I reckon they're pretty bloody good singles and I like the Jazzbo and Mykal Rose particularly. Fisherman is one of my favourite roots tunes of all time.