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Post by I on Apr 20, 2013 12:35:24 GMT
Who killed Blood & Fire?
I, said Steve Barrow, With my bow and arrow, I killed Blood & Fire.
It was I said Rob Partridge With my gun and cartridge I killed Blood & Fire.
No, it was I said Cheyenne I am the man Who killed Blood & Fire.
It was me said young Dom With a suicide bomb I killed Blood & Fire
Jean Craighead George - March 2008
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2013 22:33:04 GMT
Was it you with your rotten teeth breath ?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2013 7:16:44 GMT
He certainly killed (or helped to kill) the message board Heddwyn. That place was like the wild west and makes this place look like a meeting of the Wi. Speaking of which, aren't Dom and Cheyenne one and the same?
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Post by gbougard on Apr 23, 2013 8:49:59 GMT
wtf???
Those who killed B&F are the same who killed TABOU1, Mackasound and many other indie labels: the consumers who stopped buying enough of these labels' products. Reasons include decreasing interest in the genre, lack of disposable income to devote to buying records, piracy, general boredom, and what not.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2013 10:14:48 GMT
Surely it's not quite as simple as that? Otherwise Pressure Sounds would have joined that list of yours.
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Post by kalcidis on Apr 23, 2013 13:06:40 GMT
I would like to think that it is as simple as that for many record labels. People not putting their money on the releases is all it takes and the reasons presented (decreasing interest, lack of income to put on music and piracy) pretty much sum it up nicely I would believe. Steve Barrow said this in a recent interview though: You can read the full interview {here}.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2013 13:17:58 GMT
So how do you explain Pressure Sounds (and others) not going out of business? Surely the reasons you and gbougard put forward apply to them?
Is it the fact that PS don't pay royalties (if you believe some people with agendas), and therefore must make a killing on each release, allowing them to stay afloat? Or is it more likely they just know how to run a record label properly and some of the others didn't.
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Post by kalcidis on Apr 23, 2013 14:47:58 GMT
Well ... I did state that the case for B&F was different and referenced an interview with Steve Barrow where he explains briefly the reason for B&F going out of business. I also stated that lack of sales rather likely is the reason for many (not all) companies.
The foremost reason I believe that Pressure Sounds is still going strong is that they are still selling enough records to keep going -- it's the most fundamental part. I'm fairly convinced however that PS have gone down in sales due to the aforementioned reasons. And if they ever fold I'm once again convinced that it's due to sales going down from above reasons rather than they forget how to run a record label properly.
I haven't commented anything about royalties and PS not paying simply because I have no insight at all on how the company is run. But my general view is that if a company is surviving by selling a product and the company folds then it has to mean that either the product doesn't sell enough for the company to keep on or that they have structural problems in the company (and the income from sales do not cover other expenses). Unless the company folds just because they don't have enough interest to continue it.
I'm not saying that I'm definitely right, but I'm convinced this is a major reason for a lot of the record labels folding.
What are your thoughts? Pressure Sounds and other companies that haven't folded know better how to run a record label properly? Does that mean that the company has better insight on what to release, how to produce their product or something else?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2013 16:02:21 GMT
Well PS didn't release tripe like Tree of Satta and Fisherman Style for a start. Not every album they have released is a winner, but they have a far better strike rate than most labels imo. Certainly better than B&F thats for sure. They started off brilliantly, but the last few years that they were going were patchy at best, again just my opinion.
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Post by kalcidis on Apr 23, 2013 17:01:03 GMT
Personally I've enjoyed almost every single release from B&F with the exception of the two you mention (and perhaps one or two other). They seem however to have been commercial successes so I think they did something right even though you and I weren't pleased with them.
These are all of their releases from 2002 to their final one in 2006. I didn't include the two samplers. Out of all the releases I can only say that the two we've already spoken about are the ones I thought were uninteresting. The Mittoo I never bought either -- but I haven't heard that one so I don't know. But some of those releases are the strongest B&F have ever done! So for me personally I think it's a bit harsh to call it patchy at best. But all in all it's a very subjective matter. If you don't rate their releases then you're of course right. I can't and won't try to convince you otherwise even though apparently I'm of another opinion.
2002 BAFCD/LP038 - Yabby You - Dub it to the Top 1976-1979 BAFCD/LP039 - Dennis Brown - The Promised Land 1977-1979 BAFCD040 - Prince Alla & Junior Ross - I Can Hear The Children Singing 1975-1978
2003 BAFCD041 - Ja-Man Allstars - In The Dub Zone BAFCD/LP042 - Jackie Mittoo - Champion In The Arena 1976-1977 BAFCD/LP043 - Ranking Joe - Zion High BAFCD/LP044 - Tommy McCook - Blazing Horns / Tenor In Roots
2004 BAFCD/LP045 - The Abyssinians and Friends - The Tree of Satta Vol 01 BAFCD/LP046 - Dennis Brown Presents Prince Jammy - Umoja / 20th Century DEBwise
2005 BAFCD/LP048 - Willi Williams - Messenger Man BAFCD/LP049 - Prince Far I - Silver & Gold 1973-1979
2006 BAFCD/LP050 - The Congos and Friends - Fisherman Style BAFCD/LP051 - Yabby You - Deliver Me From My Enemies
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2013 17:21:15 GMT
As you say its subjective, and for me 2003 - 2006, which is the period I am talking about, is patchy. I bought them all at the time, but the only ones I would still play are LP048 and LP051. One thing that remained a decent standard was the sound quality and packaging.
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Post by kalcidis on Apr 23, 2013 17:34:11 GMT
Fair enough. I really enjoy those two as well but my top pick of the bunch is probably the Junior Ross album (much because I don't have this one on other vinyl as with a lot of the other). Only drawback being that it never was released as a nice vinyl.
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Post by nickfa on Apr 24, 2013 10:16:02 GMT
I think PS has more interesting and varried release's than most and not just sticking to say 70's roots, ie mento ,digi, uk, rocksteady some great dub sets....ie the Clancy Eccles one etc Highlighting producers like phill pratt, tommy cowan, Herman chinloy santic, channel one, lee perry joe gibbs etc etc great sets by Augustus pablo, wailing souls, the royals as much as i liked BAF most of it seemed to be bunny lee mixed by king tubby.
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Post by rockstone on Apr 24, 2013 10:55:13 GMT
There are other factors at play that Steve Barrow will not disclose, publicly anyway. BTW the Tree of Satta sold twice as many units as any other B&F album. I think Messenger man would be way down on my list of albums put out by B&F. The fact that if you look around you can still pick this up at the original price would bear this out. I have no axe to grind with PS. When you compare the design work, the attention to detail in tracking any artist connected with the making of an album so that they get paid, PS don't come close. B&F set up the most popular message board thus connecting reggae lovers all over the world. Reggae music started to get played in places it never was before. i saw this in my hom etown when Barrow & Dom selected for Dennis Alcapone, U Brown and Ranking Joe. One flaw was the vinyl release of "Darker than Blue" which was supposed to have been released in a gatgefold sleeve but PK f ucked that up, and I know Barrow was furious about that. Yes PS have done great work but for me B&F were the top a top revival record company of the 90's and early 00's
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2013 11:13:32 GMT
I think Messenger man would be way down on my list of albums put out by B&F. Yep, me too Flubbles! One of the few I would still play from the later era, but not a patch on the early and mid period B&F releases. When you compare the design work, the attention to detail in tracking any artist connected with the making of an album so that they get paid, PS don't come close. Spot on Flubbles. And Nickfa sums it up nicely in his post.
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Post by kalcidis on Apr 24, 2013 18:51:27 GMT
When Messenger Man first was released I thought it was a nice enough album but nothing fantastic. It has however really grown on me and I would easily put it among the better of B&F's catalogue today. It is a very sublime album that took some time for me to get into but when I finally got there it was well worth the effort. I do not think in any way that B&F is so good that it leaves PS in the dust. PS has released and still do release some fantastic compilations and reissues (that Dennis Bovell and Augustus Pablo they released last year are incredible!). But a lot of their releases have been flawed in my opinion, and more so with the recent ones. The recent Yabby You could have been incredible but I chose to boycott it due to the unauthorized dubplate use (and that comment they left on their website trying to defend page was utter bollocks). There has been a couple too many Lee Perry albums. I think they have some strong songs on them but my overall impression of them is that they are quite uneven. I guess that the name sells more than anything. Other reissues like the Third World All-Stars are surprisingly anonymous. If those things are taken in regard then I do not believe that the B&F catalogue is to be regarded as the more patchy of the two. The strength of Pressure Sounds compared to B&F in my opinion is that they often surprise with their releases. Be it good or bad. The latest Dennis Bovell, the Firehouse Revolution, When The Dances Were Changing and some other releases are fantastic sets that I'm certain never could materialise on a label as B&F. Nickfa is entirely correct in that they have a broader view on what to release -- which is very nice and needed. Don't know why I write so much in this thread. I guess I'm just happy that there is some interesting discussion happening here
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Post by nickfa on Apr 24, 2013 19:33:47 GMT
I could not agree more kalcidis that dennis bovell and augustus pablo from last year are superb, in fact i only got the Dennis Bovell earlier this week ad i realy think it is something special the third world allstars set i like not many labels would have bothered with it. BAF messenger man is great like you say it grows on you it would be nice to see ps do a Roy francis set, following the baf and motion sets would be hard but with a bit of thought it could be realy good i have quite a few killer tracks from phase one that so far have not made it to cd. I do hope they release a few more phill pratt dub albums well 2 more. All in all it is a shame BAF folded it would have been nice to see how they would have progressed. I am a little surprised pressure sounds never released more on their maximum pressure label perhaps they thought their was space for 80's and 90's releases on their main label. Nick
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Post by mch on Apr 25, 2013 6:28:23 GMT
This has turned into one of the most interestiing recent threads on this board. Hell, it even features Gripe agreeing with Rockstone!
Kalcidis: you have me going back to Messenger Man to re-evaluate.
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Post by kalcidis on Apr 25, 2013 10:27:04 GMT
mch: I really hope you enjoy it as much as I have.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 10:44:44 GMT
This has turned into one of the most interestiing recent threads on this board. Hell, it even features Gripe agreeing with Rockstone! Well lets be honest, there is no chance of him ever acknowledging that he agrees with me. It takes a bigger man and all that...
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Post by niceone on Apr 25, 2013 22:01:06 GMT
I'm just enjoying seeing a thread that gets a bit of life going. A pleasant warm feeling. Never bought any b&F stuff though
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Post by rockstone on Apr 26, 2013 8:36:14 GMT
Its a shame that Steve never got the General Echo re-issued. Class album that
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Post by kalcidis on Apr 26, 2013 10:42:22 GMT
It was released (in 2006?). My friend bought the vinyl version which was a misspress, one side was techno. I don't know if a correct second pressing came though. But it is also available on CD. Available for cheap at Discogs: www.discogs.com/General-Echo-Teacher-Fe-Di-Class/release/2582268I have the Manzie release of the album. Tried so many times to get into the album but never managed to. It is a bit dull compared to his other two sets? Which is a shame because I really love Echo and Manzie. I would however like to believe it has more to do with me overdosing deejays for a period than anything else. But then again the Kings Dub album is a dub album I never got into either (and I wanted to love that album too).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2013 11:32:29 GMT
I made the mistake of buying that General Echo album, which I sold, or traded in long ago. Didn't it get released on Barrow's short lived Microphonic label? Although from what I remember it was a Blood and Fire release by any other name, the packaging was identical to a B&F release, and I'm sure it even had a B&F catalogue number printed on the spine.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2013 11:38:33 GMT
Just pulled out some B&F releases to play over the next day or so. Including Darker Than Blue, didn't that provoke loads of discussion on the message board at the time with people up in arms that this release was desecrating the B&F legacy because it wasn't a dub/DJ/roots album?
To play in the next few days
Only Love Can Conquer - Prince Alla Termination Dub - Glen Brown Children Of Jah - The Chantells I Shall Not Remove - Cornell Campbell Mr Isaacs - Gregory Isaacs Dont Check Me With No Lightweight Stuff - I Roy
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Post by mch on Apr 26, 2013 12:22:26 GMT
The "Darker than Blue" debate was crazy! For me it was one of my favourite of their releases though. The first one I heard was "Dub Gone Crazy" - being played in a record shop. I bought it immediately, and it kick started a new interest in going back to 70's roots music to see what I'd missed first time around. When the "In The Light/In The Light Dub" release(s) came out, I realised I'd missed some very good stuff indeed!
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Post by Benj52 on Apr 26, 2013 12:30:21 GMT
Children Of Jah - The Chantells Mr Isaacs - Gregory Isaacs Dont Check Me With No Lightweight Stuff - I Roy
I'd be impressed if, after listening again, you thought any of these were crap, Sean.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2013 13:39:55 GMT
Just pulled out some B&F releases to play over the next day or so. Including Darker Than Blue, didn't that provoke loads of discussion on the message board at the time with people up in arms that this release was desecrating the B&F legacy because it wasn't a dub/DJ/roots album? To play in the next few days Only Love Can Conquer - Prince Alla Termination Dub - Glen Brown Children Of Jah - The Chantells I Shall Not Remove - Cornell Campbell Mr Isaacs - Gregory Isaacs Dont Check Me With No Lightweight Stuff - I Roy I haven't played the Prince Alla album for about 2 years,not since my daughter got it stuck in my car cd player by forcing another disc in without ejecting it & there it remained for about 8 months playing over and over and over... If I ever get captured by the Taliban (unlikely I realise),they wouldn't need to torture me to get me to squeel they could just put that on. Got Mr Isaacs playing now,sing it Gregory..
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2013 13:40:44 GMT
Exactly Benjamina, which is why I picked them! None of the B&F catalogue could probably be described as crap (apart from Fishermans Friend (or whatever its called), and Tree of Satta), there are just varying degrees of quality. Most of the stuff ranged from good to excellent until we got to the last 3 years or so, but ones I never really got over excited by in the earlier years are:
Tappa Zukie - Tappa Zukie In Dub Jah Stitch - Original Ragga Muffin Morwell Unlimited Meet King Tubby's - Dub Me U Brown - Train To Zion Inner Circle & The Fatman Riddim Section - Heavyweight Dub / Killer Dub Trinity - Shanty Town Determination Ja-Man Allstars - In The Dub Zone Ranking Joe - Zion High Tommy McCook - Blazing Horns / Tenor In Roots
These are not weak releases per-se, just not a patch on other stuff that was released on B&F imo. And I actually quite like DJ stuff as a rule, the fact that a lot of the above appear to be in that style is just co-incidence.
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Post by kalcidis on Apr 26, 2013 14:22:41 GMT
The Dub Me set I bought and listened to and thought was very nice. Then I went back to it a couple of years later and didn't recognise anything on it. It was like a totally different and inferior album than I had remembered. Bought the Crab Race LP (which is more or less the dub counter part) a year ago and decided to give it a go again and this time it was arguably better but not as great as the first time I heard it. I'm starting to think my ears are bonkers.
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