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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2012 22:24:24 GMT
Pretty interesting and fun article in the new issue of The Word. The premise is take two albums from every year starting from 1967 going right up to 2000, one of which they declare to be overrated and the other underrated. Some interesting, if no doubt deliberately provocative choices - I'll list some that they have chosen below (O = Overrated, U = Underrated)
1967 - O - Forever Changes by Love. U - The 5000 Spirits Or The Layer of The Onion by The Incredible String Band
1977 - O - The Clash by The Clash U - 77 by Talking Heads
1979 - O - The Wall by Pink Floyd U - Secondhand Daylight by Magazine
1980 - O - Zenyatta Mondatta by The Police U - Waiting For A Miracle by The Comsat Angels
1982 - O - The Lexicon of Love by ABC U - Repercussion by The dB's
1984 - O - The Unforgettable Fire by U2 U - Swoon by Prefab Sprout
1991 - O - Loveless by My Bloody Valentine U - Bandwagonesque by Teenage Fanclub.
1999 - O - Play by Moby U - Suicaine Gratification by Paul Westerberg
I always thought that 77 by Talking Heads was highy rated, not underrated, same for Bandwagonesque by Teenage Fanclub, but I suppose it'll get people talking!
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Post by grumpy on Apr 14, 2012 15:16:45 GMT
1967. "5000 Spirits" certainly wasn't underrated by me. One of THE great albums. I'll see if I can grab this issue of The Word, Gryffe.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2012 16:05:07 GMT
Its the one with a caricature of Damon Albarn on the front Grumpy. Its a good issue, includes a 4 page article by Charles Shaar Murray on Bob Marley, and an article about vinyl culture. Don't know if you are aware of The Word Grumpy, but its a kind of catch all mag that covers music new and old, modern technology, cinema, books and interesting interviews with many diverse people, including politicians, actors,artists, musicians and novelists.
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Post by grumpy on Apr 14, 2012 19:10:54 GMT
No, never clocked it before, Gryffe. Will seek it out in Leeds on Monday; sounds interesting.
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Post by zoki on Apr 14, 2012 22:18:27 GMT
Never listened to this guy before, I like it
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Post by consciouspilot on Apr 15, 2012 19:15:38 GMT
Anyone that thinks Forever Changes is overrated needs their ears syringed! Word. Pilot
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Post by professor on Apr 19, 2012 0:45:46 GMT
Never listened to this guy before, I like it There's a very good documentary called "Audioluminescent" about Roland Howard if you want to explore further Zoki.
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Post by zoki on Apr 19, 2012 7:14:57 GMT
Thanks, Prof.
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Post by I on Apr 19, 2012 8:27:44 GMT
All these records are overrated. They are part of the two dozen albums that know nothings always speak of. These folk believe music started with foul mouthed youth like The Clash and The Rolling Stones, quite unaware that most music is not made by 23 year olds with tight black jeans.
I don't think these British rockers really have any understanding of popular music. These sound like the kind of crap my ex colleagues at the NME wrote about, while calypso singers laughed at them and fishermen threw flowers.
My own choice of great albums would include real singers like Hank Williams, Lightnin' Hopkins, Everly Brothers, Bob Dylan, Sarah Vaughn, Louis Prima, Clyde Mcphatter, Sam Cooke, Delroy Wilson, Joe Turner, the list is endless.
It certainly wouldn't include these arrogant, white, middle class youth that Roman mentions, who destroyed music in the 1960s and 1970s and led to distasteful mockeries that we have now like U2, Simon Cowell, The Pixies, Paul McCartney, New Order and Motorhead. I have not the slightest interest in these indolent and ignorant fools. I'm interested in real men who have something relevant to say not miserable, vain drug addicts.
Reel
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2012 10:50:25 GMT
"They are part of the two dozen albums that know nothings always speak of."
You criticizing these albums sounds a bit to me like a referee giving a penalty for an infringement that he didn't see!!
The interesting thing for me is that Simon Cowell is more likely to listen to the music you favour than anything "made by 23 year olds with tight black jeans"
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Post by finbar on Apr 19, 2012 12:41:42 GMT
Hi Roman
Look at each comparisons that you have listed. This is simply another example of the old "commercial" versus "cool" argument that helps sustain the existence of the music press. Notice that the artists listed, save for two, are of UK origin. This is the jurisdiction that these writers service, so while the ommission of artists beyond your shores is to be expected, it should immediately raise some alarms.
Penny's lists speaks to the well-accepted fact that that the vast majority of the greatest music created in the 20th century originated in America. Today's music press wouldn't even know how to hold a measuring tape to giants like Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Harry Belafonte or Ike Turner. That should concern you.
You should listen to Mr. Reel. He may approach things from a different point of view than you might, but there is ususally a deep level of thought contained within his posts.
That's all, carry on.
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Post by baudolino on Apr 19, 2012 18:51:53 GMT
While Penny's post, not for the first time, indicates that a career in the diplomatic service was never the one for him, I tend to agree with his general hypothesis; most of the successful US/UK pop/rock groups of the 1960s were formed of young men with a lack of long life experience. While the first wave at least dipped a toe into the music of their elders, they tended, for reasons of musical and vocal ability, to play only the easier tunes, and not to delve too deep into the roots.
Where the battle was lost was when these acts became not only heroes, but became regarded, not as copyists, but as true originators, behing whose music nobody needed to look. In ripping them off, Jimmy Page at least knew of the existence of Howlin' Wolf and Sonny Boy Williamson, but those who came after him think music began with Jimmy Page. Likewise, how many Hendrix fans are aware that much of his style was simply adding a few effects pedals to some John Lee Hooker licks?
The battle, though is lost. Someone who takes Axl Rose or Bobby Gillespie seriously as a singer is going to run a mile from the likes of Ken Parker or the Louvin Brothers, and yet these inadequate singers enjoy riches and fame far in excess of their talent.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2012 19:25:12 GMT
Finbar, I only picked a few selections at random (there were selections for every year from '67 to 2000 - I assume they narrowed it down to these years due to space restrictions, rather than start from the 1920's and take up the whole magazine), I also said it was a "fun" article, so I am not sure that I should be overly "concerned"! I am more concerned that Reel persists in sticking the boot in to music he has not heard, if we are to believe posts he has made on other occasions anyway, hence my refereeing analogy. And for the avoidance of doubt, I am as much a fan of Lightnin' Hopkins and Dylan as anybody - Hopkins is my favourite country blues artist.
"Notice that the artists listed, save for two, are of UK origin"
Unfortunately there is not a link to the article, if there was I could show you that of the 68 albums included in the article there were 28 by non UK artists, nearly all of them from the US admittedly, so the "alarm bells" you allude to are not quite as deafening as you might imagine.
On your advice, I might listen to Mr Reel more and take him more seriously if he stopped posting the worst poetry it is ever been my misfortune to read, and stop verbally abusing people he knows are either unwilling to defend themselves, or more to the point probably haven't even read it in the first place. And as I said earlier, at least listen to music before he criticises it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2012 19:30:04 GMT
"Likewise, how many Hendrix fans are aware that much of his style was simply adding a few effects pedals to some John Lee Hooker licks?"
I read an article online the other day where the author reckoned(in all seriousness)that Hendrix actually ripped off George Formby for the licks of some of his most famous songs!!!
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Post by baudolino on Apr 19, 2012 21:47:20 GMT
A friend of mine knew somebody who seriously believed that Miles Davis played pibroch, so there's nowt so queer as folk
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2012 23:47:19 GMT
"Likewise, how many Hendrix fans are aware that much of his style was simply adding a few effects pedals to some John Lee Hooker licks?" I read an article online the other day where the author reckoned(in all seriousness)that Hendrix actually ripped off George Formby for the licks of some of his most famous songs!!! Did anyone catch Frank Skinner On George Formby on BBC4 the other night. While you might scoff he was a tremendously talented ukelele player still revered to this day by uke players who fail miserably to match his 'magnificent right hand' ,so it's not beyonds the realms of possibility for Hendrix to have been influenced by him. The programme was full of interesting facts that I had been unaware of,for example his father was a music hall star who earned £35 a week in 1906 ,the equivialant of £58000 today & who suffered & eventually died at the age of 41 from TB,his catchphrase was "I'm coughing better tonight". In 1960 George & his wife went to play some shows in South Africa,at the welcoming ceremony a little black girl walked onto the stage to give his wife Beryl a bunch of flowers,she picked up the little girl & kissed her & all hell let loose & they were rushed away under armed guard.As a protest George & Beryl cancelled all the shows & promised only to play for the black population only for them to be deported at gun point & the guy who had organised the shows was shot dead.Turned out nice again.
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Post by grumpy on Apr 20, 2012 7:20:31 GMT
It was actually in 1946, Taff. When the South African National Party leader and future Prime Minister, Daniel Francois Malan, ordered the Formbys' explusion from the country, Beryl turned to him and said "Why don't you piss off you horrible little man". The woman deserved a knighthood.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2012 9:29:18 GMT
Did you buy The Word Grumpy? If so, what are your thoughts on the article that has so upset some of our fractious correspondents?
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Post by grumpy on Apr 20, 2012 19:22:33 GMT
Yes, Gryffe, and enjoying it to; the first time I've bought a pop publication since I stopped reading the Melody Maker (sorry, Penny) in about 1972. Was so engrossed in the Shaar Murray article on Bob that I almost missed my stop on the train.
But first, here's the full list, and I need to say at the outset that I love lists. I regret the increasing rarity of Jah Reel's Tens that used to grace the old (and I mean old) Blood and Fire forum, though good to see his recent Dylan listing:
1967 O: "Forever changes" - Love U: "THe 5,000 Spirits or the Layers of the Onion" - The Incredible String Band
1968 O: "Wheels of Fire" - Cream U: "The Doughnut in Granny's Greenhouse" - The Bonzo Dog Band
1969 O: "Tommy" - The Who U: "Your Saving Grace" - The Steve Miller Band
1970 O: "Tea for thew Tillerman" - Cat Stevens U: "Fully Qualified survivor" - Michael Chapman
1971 O: "Imagine" - John Lennon U: "Gonna Take a Miracle - Laura Nyro
1972 O: "Lou Reed" - Lou Reed U: "Live! Full House" - The J Geils Band
1973 O: "Dark Side of the Moon" - Pink Floyd U: "Back in '72" - Bob Seger
1974 O: "461 Ocean Boulevared" - Eric Clapton U: "Relayer" - Yes
1975 O: "Born to Run" - Bruce Springsteen U: "Venus and Mars" - Wings
1976 O: "Shake Some Action" - The Flamin' Groovies U: "Toubador" - JJ Cale
1977 O: "The Clash" - The Clash U: "Talking Heads: 77" - Talking Heads
1978 O: "Q: Are We Not Men? A: We Are Devo" - Devo U: "Love Bites" _ Buzzcocks
1979 O: "The Wall" - Pink Floyd U: "Secondhand Daylight" - Magazine
1980 O: "Zenyatta Mondatta" - The Police U: "Waiting for a Miracle" - The Comsat Angels
1981: O: "Red" - Black Uhuru U: "Dare" - The Human League
1982 O: "The Lexicon of Love" - ABC U: "Repercussion" - The dBs
1983 O: "Duck Rock" - Malcolm McLaren U: "Soul Mining" - The The
1984 O: "The Unforgettable fire" - U2 U: "Swoon" - Prefab Sprout
1985 O: "Brothers in Arms" - Dire Straits U: "The Head on the Door" - The Cure
1986 O: "Blood and Chocolate" - Elvis Costello U: "The Big Heat" - Stan Ridgway
1987 O: "Sign o' the Times" - Prince U: "Yo" Bum Rush the Show" - Public Enemy
1988 O: "Daydream Nation" - Sonic Youth U: "What Up, Dog" - Was (Not Was)
1989 O: "Hats" - The Bluew Nile U: "Kite" - Kirsty MacColl
1990 O: "Ragged Glory" - Neil Young & Crazy Horse U: "Room to Roam" - The Waterboys
1991 O: "Loveless" - My Bloody Valentine U: "Bandwagonesque" - Teenage Fanclub
1992 O: "Automatic for the People" - REM U: "Kiko" - Los Lobos
1993 O: "Bat out of Hell II: Back into Hell" - Meat Loaf U: "Exile in Guyville" - Liz Phair
1994 O: "The Return of the Space Cowbow" - Jamiroquai U: "It Takes a Thief" - Coolio
1995 O: "Jagged Little Pill" - Alanis Morissette U: "Original Soundtracks I" - Passengers
1996 O: "Odelay" - Beck U: "1977" - Ash
1997 O: "Urban Hymns" - The Verve U: "When I Was Born for the 7th Time" - Cornershop
1998 O: "Without You I'm Nothing" - Placebo U: "Painted from Memory" - Elvis Costello & Burt Bacharach
1999 O: "Play" - Moby U: "Suicaine Gratification" - Paul Westerberg
2000 O: "Kid A" - Radiohead U: "Ordinary Man" - Day One
I'm not sure whether to be ashamed or gratified that my ignorance of some of these acts is total: who for the love of goodness is Paul Westerberg, for example?
But yes, this is a fun treatment; here for example is the gen on Alanis Morissette
""Like a 90s version of Carole King's Tapestry", swooned Rolling Stone. Annointed as the voice of Generation X's laydeez, Morissette now sounds like a foghorn deafening - and deadening - a great time for rock women. Goodbye, the disturbing clout of PJ Harvey, Hole and riot grrl; hello, 'ironic' profundities and fauxthentic grunge stylings. Plus that tweenage rant to an ex - You Oughta Know - putting feminism back light years"
But sometimes the nail truly skewers the head; this on a Pink Floyd abomination:
"When Roger Waters pressed soppy 60s psychobabble into service to dignify his loathing of the Floyd's fans, it was positively hateful. The Wall is just one militaristic dirge after another. As for the spectacle of a bunch of highly-educated boys telling the great unwashed they "don't need no education", words really do fail me"
And sometimes it's plain criticism as here on Black Uhuru
"A pair of scowling Rastas flanking a beautiful woman on the cover and giving Babylon a right chanting down within, this reggae trio were mysterious, glamorous and wholly righteous. The problem was that there weren't any of the tunes that gave Burning Spear or Gregory Isaacs, let alone Bob Marley, their power. Now the sheen has gone, it seems all style and no substance"
I'm looking forward to reading the feature on record sleeves over a pint in the Saltaire Sports Club later this evening.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2012 19:59:19 GMT
Grumpy, I salute your indefatigability, that takes some patience to type that lot out. As for Paul Westerberg, he was the front man for the 80's American band The Replacements. They were a very influential band, who along with REM, Husker Du, Sonic Youth and Pixies paved the way for the 90's and 00's US rock bands who went "overground" and sold gazillions of records on 1/10th of the talent of the aforementioned. As is often the case, The Replacements were a band out of time, they would have been mega today. The essential Allmusic.com has the following: www.allmusic.com/artist/the-replacements-p5255/biographywww.allmusic.com/artist/the-replacements-p5255/discography
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Post by baudolino on Apr 20, 2012 20:30:25 GMT
Right...so the only album on the entire list that is neither British nor American/Canadian is "Red" by Black Uhuru, the review of which is breathtaking in its utter ignorance.
Don't get me wrong, Black Uhuru are not the greatest group of the last thirty years, and "Red" was not IMHO as patch on "Sinsemilia" or "Showcase", and "Anthem" the following year was a far better album, but it deserved a lot better than this feeble clichéd hatchet job from someone who quite obviously knows absolutely sod-all about the culture in which it was devised, the records that preceded it, or how it influenced the dancehall era, "A pair of scowling Rastas flanking a beautiful woman on the cover and giving Babylon a right chanting down within, this reggae trio were mysterious, glamorous and wholly righteous" comes across to me as patronising, sexist and probably racist, with its implication that black people are mysterious yet possessed of some mystical "righteousness" denied to Europeans.
There is a very tenable argument that (a) Sly and Robbie had spread themselves far too thin by 1981, and that they were retreading old sonic ground on a regular basis, (b) that the songs weren't a patch on the likes of "Shine Eye Gal", "Leaving to Zion", "Happiness", "General Penitentiary" or "World Is Africa", and (c) that the vocal performances here weren't as good as they could have been; OTOH, to suggest that "Red" "seems all style and no substance" is frankly absurd, unless you are able to divorce "Youth of Eglington" altogether from the worries occasioned by Jamaican gun culture.
Baed on this, it's a magazine I'd be happy to avoid.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2012 20:48:46 GMT
Another to add to the fractious list then. I'm glad I never heard one of Dylans "religious" albums before Blonde on Blonde, Highway 61, Bringing It All Back Home etc, because obviously they would sound just as crap as the religious albums wouldn't they? Just like all the articles in The Word will be of a similar quality to this highly irreverant and FUN article!! ffS loosen up man
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Post by consciouspilot on Apr 20, 2012 20:59:58 GMT
Likewise, how many Hendrix fans are aware that much of his style was simply adding a few effects pedals to some John Lee Hooker licks?
Best laugh I've had all week, and I love John Lee 'ooker!
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Post by baudolino on Apr 20, 2012 21:01:31 GMT
"Boo Hewerdine and Brooks Williams added to the bill for our May 1st show with Dodgy"
"Punch Brothers, Glen Hansard and others added to Latitude"
"Almost a week on - Alabama Shakes still sound fantastic"
Haud me back!
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Post by baudolino on Apr 20, 2012 21:10:00 GMT
Consciouspilot: How silly of me to think that John Lee Hooker's 1953 "Guitar Lovin' Man" might have had any influence at all on Hendrix's "Voodoo Chile (Slight Return)"
Curse these faulty ears....
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2012 22:05:05 GMT
........And Captain Beefheart sounds nothing like Howlin Wolf shock horror. And Tom Waits never learnt any tricks from Captain Beefheart blah de blah de blah
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Post by consciouspilot on May 7, 2012 20:01:05 GMT
I never said yer ears were faulty Baudie, nor that Hooker might have influenced Hendrix, just chuckled at your catch-all reduction of Hendrix to a few blues licks with added wah wah....
"much of his style was simply adding a few effects pedals to some John Lee Hooker licks"
Pilot
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